Home > Uncategorized > Impossible to build with HTML5

Impossible to build with HTML5

This is an excellent Apple’s HTML5 page parody. Indeed, thinking again about, it is not really a parody but a real comparison of what Flash can do in various scenarios compared to HTML5. The refrain is “Impossible to build with HTML5″.

It’s just curious as a new, completely immature and not yet standardized technology that works only on a limited subset of all browsers has been exploited for a mere power struggle. It is honestly impossible to compare it with the 10+ years old Flash Player that simply works on any browser and do a lot of stuff. The Apple’s page about HTML5 is a prove of that: it speaks about “web standards” and then works only on Safari !!! How can anyone state such a thing and not heap ridicule? It’s a mistery to me… in the while take a look at the page and refresh your memory.

Ps: to the “Impossible to build with HTML5″ category add also my latest demo of HD video @ 250Kbit/s.

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  1. JulesLt
    22 June 2010 at 12:40 pm

    And yet it’s also puzzling as to why there is so much hostility to the IDEA of HTML 5 replacing Flash, and why people are so forgiving for Adobe’s utter failure to deliver the mobile version of Flash within a reasonable timescale.

    It’s late enough that we’ve gone SVG, because our customers want mobile access now – not when/if their phone manufacturer rolls out Flash 10.1 – and especially not if they also have to upgrade their phone, just so we can display simple vector charts.

    And there are lots of people like us out there – we don’t use Flash for advanced graphical effects, but to ‘fix’ browser limitations – vector graphics, font replacement, etc.

    And that is really the key to this ‘battle’ – it may be a limited subset of browsers, but in mobile, it is the dominant subset.

    • sonnati
      22 June 2010 at 2:11 pm

      HTML5 is great and surely it will prove to be able to substitute Flash in various scenarios, but now simply it can’t regarldess of the FUD built around it,
      and the page I mentioned is a prove of that: HTML5 now allows *some* browsers to do things Flash has done for years but lacks completely a full generation of more recent features.
      But I agree with you: Adobe has failed in delivering Flash to mobile before this absurd war exploded.

  2. max
    22 June 2010 at 1:48 pm

    Apparentemente, lo scopo delle demo è mostrare come Safari supporti funzioni standard ed extra-standard (funzioni ancora in fase di definizione e proposta) di HTML5.

    Proprio la presenza di queste ultime richiede di non aprire la pagina ad un browser che non sia quello target (ossia Safari), dato che agli altri browser mancherebbe il supporto alle funzioni extra-standard…

    A tale proposito ho fatto la prova con Firefox 3.6.3 sotto Mac OS X usando un add-on che falsifica lo user-agent spacciandolo come iPhone 3.0… le demo caricano ma non funzionano come dovrebbero, vista la mancanza di supporto alle funzioni specifiche di Safari.

    In conclusione, ti do ragione sul fatto che non sia esplicitamente e chiaramente evidenziato quali siano le funzioni extra-standard richieste da ciascun demo. La situazione è leggermente più chiara se accedi alla versione dedicata agli sviluppatori del sito test http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ che è intitolato correttamente Safari technology demos

  3. sonnati
    22 June 2010 at 2:03 pm

    La pagina è stata pubblicata sulla scia della polemica con il Flash ed è quindi ben strano che si proponga come alternativa a qualcosa di proprietario (Flash) la versione personalizzata Apple di uno standard internazionale non ancora standardizzato che funziona bene solo con uno dei meno diffusi browser del pianeta.

    • max
      22 June 2010 at 2:20 pm

      Tra i browser maggiormente noti, è un fatto che la versione pubblica in uso di Safari su piattaforma Mac OS X offra il miglior supporto alle funzioni standard di HTML5.

      http://9to5mac.com/files/u312/browsertest.jpg

      Lo puoi verificare tu stesso eseguendo i test tra le varie piattaforme sul sito html5test.com

      Nella pagina di Apple, nemmeno si fa riferimento a Flash! Quello che affermano è che Safari offre un ottimo supporto agli standard HTML5, CSS3 e Javascript.

  4. max
    22 June 2010 at 2:22 pm

    E per quello che vale, ho appena fatto i test con un iPhone 3GS, iOS 4 e relativo Safari:
    html5test: 185 + 7
    acid3: 100/100 (ma lo fa a scatti, non fluido)

    Non male per essere su uno smartphone!

  5. max
    22 June 2010 at 2:34 pm

    JulesLt :
    … our customers want mobile access now – not when/if their phone manufacturer rolls out Flash 10.1 – and especially not if they also have to upgrade their phone, just so we can display simple vector charts.

    I think this is the main point. What was Apple supposed to do for the last 3 years? Of course they got sick of waiting for something promised a long time ago and not yet delivered!!
    I think it’s normal that they begin to push for alternatives… and make no mistakes, if ever Flash for mobile delivers what it promises, Apple could alway add support for it and be back in the game.

  6. sonnati
    22 June 2010 at 2:55 pm

    Don’t fool yourself. Even if Flash was up and running for Mobile Apple would never adopted it on iPhone, it is clearly a competitor to the entire AppStore paradigma. Why Apple has not implemented a Java runtime on iPhone ? it is not “ready” ? it is not sufficiently open ? No, it would be too much open and free of bounds for the developers to use, the contrary of current Apple’s policy for developing on iPhone/iPad. They never wanted Flash on iPhone/iPad regardless of the performance/consumption/blabla excuses. In their shoes I would have done the same and they can surely control their platform … if only they had the intellectual honesty to say …

    • 25 June 2010 at 2:31 pm

      I definitely agree.
      They just lack the intellectual honesty, and cover their business strategy with technical lies.

      Stop the hurdle. We are falling in a game. We are becoming pro/anti. This is exactly the political game which is paralyzing the entire planet, and corporations prosper.

      Html5 is a markap language. Flash is an application development IDE, how could they be competitors?

      Diversity is richness. Lets concentrate how not to be exploited by corporations, not in useless flaming posts one against eachother.

      I do Flash development since 12 years, and I am really looking forward to have html5/js/css/canvas maturity to add value to my projects.

      Stop the FLASH vs HTML5
      It doesn’t help us, only helps corporations controlling us….

      love
      Filippo

  7. max
    22 June 2010 at 3:10 pm

    sonnati :
    They never wanted Flash on iPhone/iPad regardless of the performance/consumption/blabla excuses. In their shoes I would have done the same and they can surely control their platform … if only they had the intellectual honesty to say …

    You are the fool if you honestly believe that Flash was a viable option for the mobile market… it’s still not out there as of today!!!

    Anyway time is a gentlemen, we’ll see what is going to happen.

  8. max
    22 June 2010 at 3:32 pm

    PS: Why on earth do you always make the equivalence HTML5 = Apple? Even in your previous post on why Flash will kill HTML5, you ended up in discussing Adobe vs Apple.

    HTML5 is a standard supported by a number of companies, of which Apple is not even the most prominent!
    WebKit has been widely adopted. Google uses it for Android’s browser, Palm uses it, Nokia uses it, and RIM (Blackberry) has announced they will use it too. Almost every smartphone web browser other than Microsoft’s uses WebKit.

    Maybe this discussion should refocus on why do we need HTML5. It out of the question that Flash is capable of doing and offering solutions that are not yet available elsewhere, but the point is, why shouldn’t alternatives be explored and supported?

  9. sonnati
    22 June 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Indeed, in the last 12 months I have developed in HTML5 for iPhone and I’m not against HTML5, it is a good thing. I also admired the wonderful things that SJ is doing even if I’m not exactly a Mac user. The problem began when SJ, after the huge mass of complains about the lack of Flash Player in the iPad, started to rant hysterically against Flash throwing around a lot of FUD (Flash is slow, flash is close, flash is crap, flash is dead, flash is evil, we are the good). Simply that: 80% of his statements were FUD but people believe his words and frankly I can not accept. But it was only the beginning…with an unfair move worthy of the worst despot He has changed the iPhone developer contract to prohibit iPhone development with Adobe CS5 … and now has changed again to damage Google’s adv platform … I’m not happy with this behaviour but I’m not alone if US antitrust has opened investigations against Apple.

  10. max
    22 June 2010 at 4:03 pm

    Forget about Apple then… if the platform is so tyrannical and controlled, just develop for other platforms more open and with less restrictions.

    But wait a minute… how it comes that the number of developer for iOS platform is increasing? How it comes that even without Flash, the AppStore is one of the biggest success in the mobile market? How it comes that dozens of big player in the content serving area are supporting HTML5 video (normally as an addition to the king of the hill Flash)?

    You might disagree with Apple’s way of doing things, but in the end, what matters, is that they enable developers to use the platform to create great applications, even without Flash, and this scares the shit out of many Flash developer… it’s as simple as that.

  11. sonnati
    22 June 2010 at 4:49 pm

    Unfortunately someone else has choosen for me about iPhone development.

    I’m a flash developer and I see nothing wrong in defending my playground from external unmotivated attacks, even if the attacker is as powerful as SJ.
    What should I do ? I’m simply defending my work with technical evidences, this is not a mere matter of fanboy-ism

  12. max
    22 June 2010 at 5:46 pm

    Fabio, a fact you cannot deny is that up to now Flash for mobile has not been the best choice for developers. You have expressed yourself criticism on FlashLite as being too limited to substitute Flash for the mobile platform. Maybe the soon coming Flash Player 10.1 for mobile will revert things to Adobe hegemony… time will tell.

    The alternative proprietary platform offered by Apple based on HTML5, CSS3, Javascript, Objective-C is so far a success in terms of adoption, and more and more entities out there in the cloud are offering support and showing interest for this alternative.
    I understand that being yourself a Flash developer, you feel threatened by this alternative, that might force you to learn a different way of doing things…but this is how the market works. Leadership is seldom perpetual, more often is a temporary condition.

  13. max
    22 June 2010 at 5:48 pm

    PS: Remember what happened to Commodore Amiga platform!!!!

  14. sonnati
    22 June 2010 at 6:14 pm

    -Apple platform is great, SJ is a (sometimes evil ;-)) genius.
    -iPhone/iPad are wonderful product but represents a few % points of all internet screens.
    -The lack of Flash on iOS doen’t mean that Flash is crap/old/dead/etc…
    -I never considered Flash Lite a valid option.
    -I have ordered an iPad, it lacks only one thing: Flash.
    -Today FP10.1 has been released for Android.
    -HTML5 cannot substitute (at least by now) Flash, like AJAX never did.
    -Flash does a lot of things and is used by 3 million developers for millions of sites.
    -I like competition and I have programmed in Perl, PHP, Flash4, AS1, AS2, AS3, Flex, VB6, JAVA, C/C++, Assembly, VB.NET and C# so no problem in learning something else.
    -I HATE the way Apple has attacked Adobe, it’s not a matter of leadership/competition because they was not direct competitors.
    -Last but not least: AMIGA FOREVER !!!

  15. max
    22 June 2010 at 6:47 pm
  16. max
    22 June 2010 at 7:07 pm

    And also reading this http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/05/first-look-flash-android/

    We tested different websites with the Flash 10.1 Player on a Nexus One running Android 2.2, and here’s our first take: With Flash on your phone, no website is really out of bounds. Flash does not appear to be a battery hog, nor does it chew away at your phone’s resources.

    But it’s not a flawless experience either. Flash content — especially video — can take up to a minute to load, which is more frustrating on a phone than it is on a desktop. And it sucks bandwidth. Our corporate Wi-Fi connection just didn’t seem good enough, and most Flash-heavy sites took a while to load.

  17. sonnati
    22 June 2010 at 7:29 pm

    yeah, probably a small re-design would help. Today video players have for example tiny buttons, a redesign thinking about mobile is needed to optimize user experience.

  18. max
    23 June 2010 at 9:46 am

    Reading the comments to this article http://www.musicthinktank.com/blog/the-html5-vs-flash-war-in-regards-to-the-music-industry.html I found an interesting one:


    @Kevin

    Your perspective can be forgiven, because you’ve clearly invested a large amount of your life into Flash. You’re a true believer, and that’s a powerful thing. However, it’s almost certainly biasing your judgement — your assertion that there can only be one,Flash-dominated future is short-sighted.

    ActionScript is just a derivative of ECMAScript (aka JavaScript) and most of the performance issues you associate with JavaScript are actually the fault of the browser DOM. Two major technical innovations have occurred: blazing fast JavaScript VMs (like Google’s V8) and broad support for Canvas and SVG in browsers.

    Canvas allows you to draw anything you want at the pixel level. It’s natively supported in everything except IE, and does work in IE via CSS hackery and/or Google Chrome Frame – a trick to embed Google’s Chrome browser into IE.

    However, Microsoft’s IE team are actively working to get Canvas support into IE9. If they succeed, then your claim that Flash apps “couldn’t be reproduced in another language” is rendered completely false.

    Already, Google’s V8 runs JS faster than Flash runs AS3. Browsers can enable support for hardware accelerated Canvas and SVG. Meanwhile, Flash runs very poorly on Apple computers (and not at all on mobile devices).

    All of this leads me to say that you should broaden your horizons. Canvas + HTML5 can free you, if you let it.

    @Chris

    There’s a growing movement of hackers and browser implementors that want to drive progress instead of waiting for the W3C to approve it. At the rate we’re going browsers will be iterating better and better HTML5 stacks a decade before the W3C gives its blessing.

    I think that’s actually a good thing.

  19. max
    23 June 2010 at 9:54 am

    PS: This site http://html5watch.tumblr.com/ seems to be an interesting one to see what could be done with HTML5.

    Flash is still better on many things, but it’s nice to see alternatives emerging.

  20. max
    23 June 2010 at 9:59 am

    And this other one seems also very nice http://9elements.com/io/?p=153

  21. sonnati
    23 June 2010 at 11:01 am

    Max, it is clear that HTML5 will write a part of the future of the web, as AJAX has done before. It is also clear that now it covers only a limited subset of what flash can do and is also considerably slower (see my post about cross benchmarks). But Yes, it’s nice to see alternatives emerging, no doubt, especially for Mobile.

    HTML5 is innocent in the querelle between Apple and Adobe, and Adobe has nothing againts HTML5 (remember that Dreamweaver CS5 will probably become one of the most used tool to develop HTML5 pages).

    The dark side of the story is the attack of SJ against Flash, the slogan was: “Flash is crap use HTML5 everywhere” and “I don’t want you to code with a tool different from XCODE so throw away your CS5″.

    If Google would say: “Safari is crap, use Chrome instead” and “I don’t want browser different from Chrome on Google and YouTube so use it or go elsewhere” what would you think ? The example is exagerated but I’m sure you will react.

  22. max
    23 June 2010 at 11:10 am

    Actually until last January YouTube was not offering video as H.264, and the iPhone’s user were doing just fine…

    The market is full of proprietary technologies… also to develop games for consoles you have to use the tools provided by the vendor… so what?

    What you don’t accept is that up to now, Flash on mobile was not a reality and could not be used as a viable alternative. Apple is all about user experience, and frankly I prefer to have less content/application that do work well, than to have many that don’t.

  23. max
    23 June 2010 at 11:14 am

    PS: Considering the way you are arguing, a better title for this article would have been “Apple vs Adobe”. I read this article hoping to find a nice discussion on why Flash is still superior to HTML5, with possible thoughts on the future trends and solutions that might close the gap between the two.

  24. max
    23 June 2010 at 11:17 am

    PS2: Sorry, i meant video as HTML5 in my post above.

  25. max
    23 June 2010 at 3:34 pm

    sonnati :
    …with an unfair move worthy of the worst despot He has changed the iPhone developer contract to prohibit iPhone development with Adobe CS5 … and now has changed again to damage Google’s adv platform … I’m not happy with this behaviour but I’m not alone if US antitrust has opened investigations against Apple.

    Might this be a reason why extra-layer are not a good thing?

    “Flash was designed for the desktop world, for web and large screens, not the user experiences you want to create in these new devices with touch, accelerometers and GPS,” Luh said. “It wasn’t designed with that in mind at all.”

    Luh was also formerly employed by Apple on the Final Cut Pro team. He said that because Adobe’s iPhone Packager didn’t use Apple’s toolchain to create apps, the resulting code would not work well on an iPhone or iPad. For instance, apps made with Packager are much larger than they would be if they were made with Xcode. A simple “Hello World” app created in Flash and compiled to work on the iPhone is substantially larger in file size, and it would take up 3.6 MB when it should be no larger than 400K when made with Xcode, according to James Eberhardt, a mobile developer who has tested iPhone Packager.

    Read More http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/adobe-flash-jobs/#ixzz0rge1IrGD

  26. 13 July 2010 at 3:07 am

    good post, i like it, very useful, thanks

  27. 20 October 2010 at 2:35 pm

    I had to know html 5 to can say anything about it – but your article inspired me to learn html 5 ;) take care

  28. max
    2 June 2011 at 10:57 pm

    Adobe CEO discuss the “control issue” and “business model issue” of no-flash (in the browser) for iOS
    http://allthingsd.com/video/?video_id=7425A8A1-9A90-4024-A44C-2E25A6ED03ED

  29. Max
    10 November 2011 at 12:11 pm

    As I wrote last year… time is a gentleman. :D

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